The ~Texas~ Mustang Project's Blog

Working for better management options and cohabitation through compromise and communication for the American Wild Mustang

“Pigeon Fever” Information…

Posted by Texas Mustang Project on March 30, 2010


1220hrs CST – Update: The veterinarian at Broken Arrow USA (Indian Lakes Road Facility) has released a vet report regarding the “Pigeon Fever” infections at that facility. See below or download pdf at http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/field_offices/winnemucca_field_office/programs/wild_horse___burro/winnemucca_wild_horse/indian_lakes_road/pigeon_fever_vet_report.Par.39265.File.dat/Vet%20Report%203-31-2010%20(Pigeon%20Fever)%201.pdf 

Pigeon Fever at Indian Lakes Road Facility in Fallon, NV  

  

Veterinarian report prepared by: Richard Sanford, DVM. NV# 565  

Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis: 

  

Of the Calico Complex horses gathered from December 29, 2009 – February 4, 2010, approximately 2 percent of the 1,922 horses received at the facility showed clinical signs of healed chest abscesses from recent Pigeon Fever infection and .25 percent to .50 percent showed more recent or currently were infected with Pigeon Fever.  

As of March 31, 2010, at the Indian Lakes Road facility, Pigeon Fever is still noted at the .25 percent to .50 percent rate, mostly found in the juvenile horses. The incidence of Pigeon Fever at the Indian Lakes Facility is at the same percentages that exist on the Calico Complex. The chest swellings range from golf ball size to grapefruit size. Fly season occurs at the end of summer. Therefore, it is expected that incidents of Pigeon Fever will decrease over time. Disease may or may not reoccur during the 2010 fly season based on environmental factors, such as temperatures, precipitation levels, soil conditions, fly conditions, etc. It is noted that California had severe Pigeon Fever conditions during the 2009 fly season. It is speculated those conditions apply to Nevada as well.  

Horses housed at the Indian Lakes Road facility that have active Pigeon Fever are being monitored. No treatments have been administered to date. Abscesses have all resolved without treatment. No deaths or complications have been associated with infection. Based on 25 years of past experience with wild horses and burros, Pigeon Fever can exist in many of our wild herds depending on current year environmental conditions.  

bacteria which is found in the soil, is most likely transmitted by biting flies and has a very long incubation period (weeks – months). The disease has nothing to do with pigeons. The name comes from the large chest abscesses that some horses can get, which look like the large breast of a pigeon. (Also known as “Dryland Distemper” or “Pigeon Breast”)   

1947hrs CST – Update: 

At this time, I still have not received confirmation and details from John Neill. I did however speak with a couple of the university veterinarians I had contacted.

From Dr. Sharon Spier, Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, University of California, Davis… “The bacteria is endemic in both Nevada and Texas and survives for long periods of time in soil, especially if the soil is mixed with manure (like paddocks).  Flies are important as vectors but open wounds could be contaminated if the bacteria is present from other horses draining abscesses.” “Dryland Distemper” C. psedotuberculosis Infections in Horses by Dr. Sharon Spier, DVM, Ph.D., Dipl. ACVIM, Professor, Dept. of Medicine and Epidemiology, UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine ***I highly recommend this article as it has some great information and explains the disease process in detail.***  

Dr. Buddy Faries said earlier that “the disease is not a highly contagious disease, rather it is a chronic disease. This is because the bacterium itself is much like staph in that it is always present on or in the body. It is only when conditions for a particular bacterium are present that it becomes pathogenic. It’s not likely to go to humans (zoonotic). This can happen, but cases are rare and must be from direct contact of infected bodily fluids.” (Buddy is a professor and an Extension veterinarian with the Texas Cooperative Extension and serves as the Extension Program Leader for Veterinary Medicine, Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, Texas A&M University in College Station (whew!) and a very dear friend of mine. He has “saved the day” on more than one occassion 🙂 )   

On YouTube: Pigeon Fever, Dryland Strangles, Distemper: Corynebacterium & Pigeon Fever, Dryland Strangles, Distemper: Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis in Horses <- this site has links to university study documents as well.  

Also from theHorse.com… Pigeon Fever: Abscesses Within and Without by Nancy S. Loving, DVM, Excerpts:   

“Dryland distemper is caused by bacterial infection with Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, which localizes in deep abscesses in the breast (pectoral) muscles, along the abdomen, and/or in the groin (sheath or udder) region. It is dubbed “pigeon fever” because in profile the swelling on the chest resembles the rounded appearance of a pigeon’s breast. Pigeons have nothing to do with causing or spreading the disease.”   

“Even when a horse on a property contracts pigeon fever, it doesn’t mean that all or any other horses in that location will develop the disease. The presence or extent of the infection seems to depend largely upon an individual horse’s immune system and how well he can fight off this organism.”  

The use of antibiotics is controversial; unless there are extenuating circumstances such as internal abscesses or ulcerative lymphangitis, it is recommended that the horse affected by external or pectoral abscesses not be given antibiotics. If a horse is placed on antibiotics prematurely, in most cases the infection will simply simmer along and resurface when antibiotics are discontinued. Supportive care includes:  

  • Hot packing of the swollen area to help bring the abscess to a head, improve circulation, resolve edema, and to make the horse more comfortable;
  • Administration of a low dose of a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAID) medication (phenylbutazone or flunixin meglumine) once a day if swelling or lameness is extreme or if the horse feels so poorly that he is not eating and drinking. Only administer such anti-inflammatory medications under advisement of your veterinarian.

“The ulcerative lymphangitis form and disease disseminated into internal organs do not respond well to treatment. Internal abscessation can be identified with testing of a blood sample sent to UC Davis or Texas A&M for serologic testing for antibodies to C. pseudotuberculosis. Diagnostic ultrasound examination yields specific information about the organ location of internal abscesses. The prognosis for horses affected by internal abscesses is poor, mainly because the disease has persisted for a long time before there is recognition that the horse is sick. It is estimated that 40% of horses with internal Corynebacteria abscesses will die from complications of internal organ infection.”  

Original Post:

I received information this morning concerning a possible “Pigeon Fever” outbreak at Broken Arrow USA. I have contacted BLM and WH&B personnel by email and phone to verify this information and what, if any, circumstances are involved in this situation. I have also contacted several university veterinarians to inquire about information on the disease itself.At the time of this post, I am still awaiting replies to these inquiries. I will update this post as soon as I get the information. In the meantime, the following are links to educational information about Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, otherwise known as Pigeon Fever“:

 

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89 Responses to ““Pigeon Fever” Information…”

  1. jan said

    i think glynse gardner the lady who is a humane observor and takes photos and posts to cloud foundation is the one who noted the horses were sick

    you can ck on her blog off of cloud group

    i think people on cloud are trying to get hold of people to treat horses – glynse said 12 were sick –

    people on cloud said there can be no more roundups until horses are all treated and none moved frm fallon area

    • Hi Jan,
      Yea, Elyse posted this information earlier as well as Cloud’s Blog. I received the information from another source this morning via email.
      T.

      • From terri farley, mar;

        Terri Farley said on Pigeon Fever Updates from Fallon
        March 31, 2010 at 4:11 pm
        Just wanted to let you know that the majority of the horses still look GREAT, as of last Sunday. Beautiful conformation, rainbow diversity of coat colors and many seem to have kept their inquisitive natures. All the more reason to follow recommended measures and ISOLATE the sick horses, improve cleanliness and shovel out any soil on which the seepage has drained.
        The whole world is watching & that’s a good thing. Please keep your eyes open for word of the phantom foals, whose lives and means of death are recorded no where, if they’re born “in facility.”

        See all comments on this post here.

  2. sandra longley said

    Pigeon fever was discovered or diagnoised first in 1915 in california, and stayed primarily in that area for decades without moving into other states, as californians started migrating so did the disease.That state had a large concentrated horse population compared to the rest of the states around them. When I would show my horses in Calif, i would always come home with some virile crud that vacinations don’t cover..It was years before we ever heard of pigeon fever in Oregon and coincided with the explosion of californians moving into a horse mecca-bend, oregon..personal observations was that it was not in the soil previous to that..as there were no cases.But everyone i know in the horse industry grew up with it as a fact of life..I think Californians know quite a bit more about it having lived with it so long..sadly, it has now become a fact of life up here..most people treat it themselves, I do not think anyone can predict the outcome in 1900 hoses in one location, under stress, who can not be easily cared for or isolated. i do not think those horses in that facility should be moved or adopted out until it has run its course..I have seen those abcesses take months to break…close up too fast and rebuild with another abcess..there are states who have yet to be infected with pigeon fever..it would be irresponsible to send adopted horses around the country and expose every domesticated horse to it knowing you had an outbreak..furthermore that facility will be use less in the future..you cannot disinfect the ground..I have never seen it infect more than 1 horse in a group..but then i was able to isolate and treat the horses that had it..However there were a group of 100 thourbred mares and 30 came down with it..I donot think we can- with any confidence-predict what will happen in these circumstances. And the BLM should error on the side of worst case scenerio.

    • What about the horses that develop ulcerative lymphangitis or the internal abscess form? The BLM will use that as an excuse to “euthanize” them, sure as anything, if there is no external oversight.

      Someone responsible HAS to get access.

  3. sandra longley said

    PS,,if an outbreak were to occur across the US, the wild horses would be blamed as disease ridden vermin..when in fact it was a poor management decision..If the BLM does not take the proper steps – or the USDA, I will personally contact every horse organization across the US and inform them.

  4. LOUIE COCROFT said

    IS THIS FACILITY STILL AT THE BROKEN ARROW RANCH?

  5. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THEN, IT’S A GOOD BET THAT IT WAS ALREADY IN THE SOIL BEFORE THE HORSES WERE PUT THERE. IT WOULD BE MY GUESS THAT THIS WHOLE OPERATION WAS “TOP HEAVY” FROM THE SOUNDS OF IT. MOST OF THE MONEY GOING FOR CONTRACTORS AND ADMINISTRATION, AND LITTLE LEFT FOR STAFFING THE FACILITY. AS ONE OF OUR REGULAR COMMENTERS POINTED OUT AFTER VISITING THE FACILITY, THERE DIDN’T SEEM TO BE MUCH HELP THERE. HOW MUCH STAFF–HOW MANY VETS–FOR 1900 HORSES? DON’T SEE THAT THERE WOULD BE MUCH TIME OR ENOUGH WORKERS TO KEEP THE MANURE CLEANED OUT OF THE PENS.

    • Linda said

      It’s not just manure contamination, it’s soil contamination, in which case all potentially contaminated soil should be removed and replaced. A lady who wanted to foster a couple of our rescue horses had an outbreak of PF, and was advised against fostering by her vet. Our vet agreed.

      She doctored her horses every day for weeks, and the outbreak was contained. The horses do have scars, but otherwise seem fine. She removed and replaced the soil in all her stalls and pens, all halters, lead ropes, brushes, and anything else that came in contact with her horses. She also bleached the whole place.

      It was an exausting and expensive action, but she didn’t want to take any chances. The welfare of the horses was and is her primary concern. She’s stil very worried PF may recurr.

      • sandra longley said

        Yeah-ita a management nightmare..i hd a friend that did have to have her 12 year old mare put down last year do to complications Of the PF abcess breaking in the mares bag..it was very painful, would not let the foal nurse, got mastitis and scar tissue in the Mamalary gland-very painful for the mare, did not want to move and just kept abcessing..went on for several months..she had her put down to end her suffering

    • sandra longley said

      One of my real concerns are the amount of mares foaling in those pens..I saw photos of newborns with piles of crap around them, no way to treat a newborns umbilical cord with iodine, I would be looking for foals at about 45 days old to be showing signs of septicemia, swollen joints and lameness-as the the titers drop off from the immunity they get from the colostrum ..Too many mares foaling in filthy conditions..

  6. LOUIE COCROFT said

    HOW MANY STALLIONS WERE THEY GOING TO CASTRATE DURING THE “PROCESSING” WHEN THE HUMANE OBSERVERS WERE KEPT OUT? WOULDN’T THAT LEAVE THOSE HORSES WIDE OPEN TO INFECTION?

    • sandra longley said

      It was my understanding that no horses were going to be castrated pending the outcome of the lawsuit..In the event the judge says they have to be released..I think that is a slim chance, as he pointed out in his rejection of the injunction-He did not think the long term holding was legal but did not think the BLM could release “excess”horses back into the wild..and thought it was a decision for congress..there is hope, a glimmer, that due to the problems that occurred he may change his mind.

    • Louie, I don’t think they are going to castrate any of them until the IDA lawsuit is settled.

      But, check this: http://www.rgj.com/article/20100331/NEWS/100331001/-1/CARSON/Lawsuit-seeks-return-of-1-800-wild-horses-to-Nevada-range

      • Ok – this is NOT another lawsuit as seems to be implied by this article. It was the filing of the final brief by the IDA. Wow, I wasn’t sure WHAT was happening when I read that article. :o)

        • sandra longley said

          Yeh, I got all excited and made a donation! I think they may have amended the complaint and added the return of the horses to the wild, the judge pointed out in the hearing on the injunction-he could not consider what they had not stated in the original complaint..and kind of pushed them in the direction they needed to go

  7. Linda said

    Unfortunately, it seems to me the question is do we want the Calico horses at Fallon released back onto the HMAs? If the wild ones still on the range have no immunity to PF, it could/would put them in danger. And if PF breaks out in those herds, the BLM could used it as justification to destroy them all.

    Just askin’.

    • I thought about that too, but they can’t go ANYWHERE intil they are not infectious any more – however long that is.

      If it’s endemic in the soil, where did they get it? On their range or at Fallon?

    • Linda said

      I’ve been having second thoughts about this. It would be taking a really big chance, but if the wild ones that aren’t symptomatic were released at once, they could still carry PF, but that might not be a totally bad thing.

      Horses on the HMAs may come down with the infection, but they have strong constitutions. I think they’d have a better chance fighting it off moving across range than in those filthy pens. Also, there should be less chance of secondary infections in a cleaner environment.

      As has been said, PF isn’t normally fatal, but that’s in domestic horses.

      Introducing something the mustangs may or may not have been exposed to would certainly be a risk, but those who make it through naturally could pass antibodies down the line.

      PF will probably get to the herds eventually, if it hasn’t already. It’s showing up in more and more places, flies like to fly, and cattle are probably out there already.

      Just something else to think about, as if we don’t have enough going.

      • sandra longley said

        If we don’t get them released they won’t be passing anything including their genetics down the line..This is the end of the line of these horses forever..And I don’t like it

  8. LOUIE COCROFT said

    99.9% BET THAT THEY GOT IT IN THE HOLDING PENS AT FALLON. YOU CAN’T PUT THAT MANY ANIMALS OR PEOPLE IN SUCH CLOSE QUARTERS AND EXPECT THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS ISN’T GOING TO HAPPEN.

  9. LOUIE COCROFT said

    I WONDER WHAT THINGS THEY WOULD EAT IN THE WILD TO MEDICATE THEMSELVES.

    • sandra longley said

      Horses in the wild would constantly be moving..that keeps the abcess open and draining, they would not be in their own waste with all that dirt dust that will now be bacteria ladened in the air traveling to their mucus membranes or scrapes and sores…God help them if they were to start gelding those studs under these circumstances.

  10. sandra longley said

    I read that Tomahawk and lightning had not been seen on the last observer day….any other info on them out there? Who could miss them.they are pretty distinctive

  11. LOUIE COCROFT said

    SUZANNE, I WENT OVER TO THAT NEWSPAPER–THAT SAME GROUP OF SNIPERS IS STILL THERE. IT WAS KIND OF FUN TAKING A SWING AT THEM FOR WHILE, BUT IT DOES SIDETRACK YOU.

  12. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THE BEST THING WE CAN DO FOR THEM IS TO KEEP THIS PUBLIC. CNN, GEORGE KNAPP–ANYONE YOU CAN THINK OF THAT IS ALREADY FOLLOWING THIS. CNN NEEDS TO HEAR FROM ALL OF US.

  13. This is the Vets report posted Wed. March 31, at the “Gather Update”…

    I think the worst thing they can do is have the adoption event on May 15 and 16. Moving horses to Palomino Valley. (This also means Palomino Valley horses are being removed; to where??) The stallions who may be ‘chosen for adoption’ could be gelded… but under these circumstances that seems insane to operate in the manner they do. The spread of this disease could become internal from open and draining incisions on horses. This place needs to be closed down and taken over and mares with foals removed and pregnant mares separated for birthing. Regardless of the stats that BLM Vet Sanford has given on horses coming in with evidence of scarring and recent infection. The horses on the range move and this disease does not become the problem it may here in the pens. If no one takes a stand on this, in Nevada, many more horses lives will be in jeopardy. BLM does not help horses recover they destroy them instead. Because they are wild there is no attempt to treat this.

    According to the below report 38 horses were found to have scarring from possible pigeon fever. Among mostly juvenile horses 5 to 10 were found to have “more recent or were currently infected with PF ” A bit vague on numbers… as usual. mar

    Pigeon Fever at Indian Lakes Road Facility in Fallon, NV
    Veterinarian report prepared by: Richard Sanford, DVM. NV# 565
    Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis: bacteria which is found in the soil, is most likely transmitted by biting flies and has a very long incubation period (weeks – months). The disease has nothing to do with pigeons. The name comes from the large chest abscesses that some horses can get, which look like the large breast of a pigeon. (Also known as “Dryland Distemper” or “Pigeon Breast”)
    Of the Calico Complex horses gathered from December 29, 2009 – February 4, 2010, approximately 2 percent of the 1,922 horses received at the facility showed clinical signs of healed chest abscesses from recent Pigeon Fever infection and .25 percent to .50 percent showed more recent or currently were infected with Pigeon Fever.
    As of March 31, 2010, at the Indian Lakes Road facility, Pigeon Fever is still noted at the .25 percent to .50 percent rate, mostly found in the juvenile horses. The incidence of Pigeon Fever at the Indian Lakes Facility is at the same percentages that exist on the Calico Complex. The chest swellings range from golf ball size to grapefruit size. Fly season occurs at the end of summer. Therefore, it is expected that incidents of Pigeon Fever will decrease over time. Disease may or may not reoccur during the 2010 fly season based on environmental factors, such as temperatures, precipitation levels, soil conditions, fly conditions, etc. It is noted that California had severe Pigeon Fever conditions during the 2009 fly season. It is speculated those conditions apply to Nevada as well.
    Horses housed at the Indian Lakes Road facility that have active Pigeon Fever are being monitored. No treatments have been administered to date. Abscesses have all resolved without treatment. No deaths or complications have been associated with infection. Based on 25 years of past experience with wild horses and burros, Pigeon Fever can exist in many of our wild herds depending on current year environmental conditions.

  14. sandra longley said

    I see the BLM has its newest BS report up on the website..Its version was that the PF was in the horses when they arrived…old scars..LOL..primarily in young horses..however The first photo i saw was of an ready to foal mature buckskin mare..No reports of pigeon fever until it was made by Elyse…comeon..NOW you want us to believe you, credibility is based on performance…based on their “25 years of experience” in pigeon fever…who are you trying to BS?

    • Linda said

      PF incubation period info varies widely, but nothing I’ve found so far mentions “months”. Mostly 3-4 weeks. CSU vet says “weeks”.

      2% “showed clinical signs of healed chest abcesses from RECENT PF infection”? What about scars in other areas? Could it be the Calico wild horses have some yet-to-be-discovered strain of PF that only affects the chest? Dr. Sanford should publish – he might win a prize!

      Why didn’t some “experienced wrangler” notice and report the “signs of healed chest abcesses from recent PF infecton” at the trap sites or when they came to Broken Arrow? Where were the vets?

      Have they tested soil, manure, whatever, outside of the facility? On the HMAs? Not that we could trust any information they’d provide.

      “Incidence at Indian Lakes…same percentage as on Calico Complex.” Did they get this information from high in the air, or from “Google Earth”? Has the BLM mentioned PF in any wild horse reports over their “25 years of past experience”?

      “Abcesses have ALL resolved without treatment.” Heavens above, these are MIRACLE horses! They should be preserved for their amazing healing powers alone!

      BULLPUDDING!

      Hi, BLM-person-who’s-reading-this. Since you won’t allow independent observation for long enough do much more than say, “Howdy!”, I want original, undoctored photos of these horses. 2%-5% equals a 3-1/2% average. That’s 66.5 horses, but 66 will do. Please don’t saw some poor horse in half for the sake of “accuracy”. That train left the station a long time ago. Just pick up a camera and start clickin’!

      • Linda, the vet said .02 % to .05% which is more than 4 horses and less than 10. OK we need a math head here.. just to be clear.
        mar

      • Linda said

        Mar, I asked my son, “the math guy”, who said, “Percents are so simple!” (Obviously, not for me!) 2% = 0.020 x 1900 = 38 (which I understood). The report read .25% to .50%. .25% = 0.0025 x 1900 = 4.75 , and .50% = O.005 x 1900 = 9.5.

        MY BAD. From now on, I’ll leave percents to others. Sorry about that, BLM person.

        • sandra longley said

          Dr. Kane returned my call on friday am, he said they estimate around 40 horses had PF…but 40 is also the estimate on abortions..so maybe there is some confusion..I don’t know about the scar counting..those horses had scrapes from one end to another after they got to the holding facility..I had not thought they so intensely examined the horses, and it would have had to have been in the processing..because you could not have seen those old scars just by looking thru long winter hair. Just using some logic here..but maybe T knows whether their examinations during processing are that complete..also T did not mention seeing abcesses during her trip to the facilities, and i know for certain it would not have escaped her notice.The horses that got it on my ranch didn’t leave any scars..within a month or 2 of abcessing you would never have known it happened..Just my experience, and the 1 mare had to be reopened and a drain put in, because it kept closing up before it was done..that was a several month process..alot of work, headache and about 500 in vet bills, the other one broke and healed on its own..maybe the difference was the one out on pasture healed on its own..the other one was a show mare and kept up in the barn, so even tho I excersized her every day-may have contributed to the abcess closing before it was done draining.

          • This still may mean that there are many more in incubating stage and others becoming infected. They do need to do some sorting to contain the drainage that will hit the churned up soil. They can do some some work and attempt a containment.

            Can there have been horse brought in from a Southern source? I guess there are just too many variables on a source.. mar

    • Dr. Rich Sanford is the one with the “25 years of experience” according to John, Dean, and Lili. Apparently, he has always been a government contract veterinarian and not a private practice veterinarian. This of course means that he has always been a “wild horse vet” and not the “dog and pony vet down the road.”
      I did send a set of questions out just a few minutes ago in reference to all of these questions. Hopefully, I will get some answers to them soon… Hopefully.
      T.

      • sandra longley said

        Since the vet does not see or doctor any of the wild horses other than when they are gathered and at facilities..that 25 years doesn’t amount to much. And as was pointed out in the WWP lawsuit on the calicos..It is the WH&B person who goes out..Ms Eckle stated she had never been on the calico complex because it was too vast to monitor and a wilderness area with no roads..THEY DONOT GO INTO THE CALICOS to assess the horses-so how would he have ANY information on what PF those horses had on the range?? She stated she was only able to get into areas of warm springs and the black rock area. Any Idiot knows..that any disease is going to infect more horses with large numbers in confinement, poor husbandry and an inability to doctor or clean the facilities properly..I am insulted that he thinks we are that stupid or uninformed. No mention of the fact that PF also causes abortions..and perhaps if “someone” had done autopsies on those foals and sent placentas to UC Davis..we would now what caused all those abortions-that would have been normal procedure at a breeding farm.

        • WE are not that uninformed, but unfortunately, a large percentage of the general public IS that uninformed. They don’t know squat about horses – wild or domestic – and you can’t tell them anything because what little they DO know has been provided by anti-horse propagandists.

          This is one of our biggest problems, IMO.

          • tracielynnthompson@yahoo.com said

            I agree 100% with this. That is why we have to do our best to inform everyone we can with the facts and evidence and not the myths and propaganda!
            T.

  15. sandra longley said

    Still no call back from Dr. Albert Kane in COLO..I found a video last night of him stating there was no problem with a winter gather of the calico horses a few days into it..this will be interesting because he is not going to pull a bluff on me, start calling this nuber and ask what he is going to do..keep calling and spred the word…Dr. Kane, 970-494-7385

    • sandra longley said

      His direct line to his office(you will get his answering system is: 970-494-7234…just got it and left another message

      • sandra longley said

        Heard back from Dr. Kane this morning..I had alot of questions and we had a discussion..i will wait for Tracie to get her results so that we can discuss this..Of course I got into alot of the questions I have of the overall- program not just the pigeon fever..But i will say that no horses will be adopted out until this PF has run its course

  16. sandra longley said

    There are a series of articles about pigeon fever causing spontaneous abortions in mares, as well as the initial spike in tempature, causing a die off of sperm in stallions that could greatly impact breeding farms across the US.UC Davis is doing some research, as cCalif, by far and away has the greatest incidence of PF over many years

  17. sandra longley said

    http://lbemc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/pigeon_fever.pdf

    This is one of the better articles on Pigeon fever-don’t let anyone tell you this is not dangerous and most especially those with the internal abcesses or pregnant mares..it is very serious..usually not seen in heavily pregnant mares as is typically seen in late fall. It is 100% fatal internally if not heavily treated with antibiotocs.

  18. LOUIE COCROFT said

    CREDIBILITY HAS ALREADY BEEN COMPROMISED BY NOT ALLOWING HUMANE OBSERVERS IN FACILITY.

  19. LOUIE COCROFT said

    HOW ABOUT A VETERINARIAN FROM A UNIVERSITY–PERHAPS DAVIS? DOES THE VETERINARIAN HAVE TO BE IN NEVADA?

  20. Pat in Wyoming said

    Highly contagious and horses can contract it from cows. I say that the vet either brought it in on his boots, clothes or even his hands from either doctering a cow with it OR he walked in manure somewhere and vrought it in. Has the place on private land where these horses are now in holding pens had cows in close quarters there? I think the disease was in the ground when the horses showed up. It would be like bringing in people to a hospital ward full of sick people and no one is washing their hands or sterilizing anything, just passing around the germs. They are stressed too and that makes their immune system practically on overload. I read the prognosis for internal abcesses is not good and can cause colic. That would be horrible. How are they going to treat wild horses that you cannot even touch? They are going to let them stand there and die aren’t they? Just like they let the ones stand in filth to their knees and it froze and they all died. No wonder they will not let any one near that place.

  21. sandra longley said

    There is a big cutting coming up this month in Reno..and boy howdy they spend alot of money when they are in town..There are usually big cuttings in Fallon as well, those good ole texas boys come up..guess they will be taking PF back to texas with them….Maybe i should start making phone calls to some of my buddies who are cutters

  22. sandra longley said

    I googled PF 2010. nothing came up except the calico horses..there are currently no outbreaks..first of all-this is the wrong time of year for a normal outbreak. Tighten up your suspenders people..I think we are going to see alot of different probems come out of this facility. Wild horses do not have the immunity that a domesticated horse has-they have not been exposed and are in the wide open spaces moving constantly, they don’t need all those vaccines until you bring them in to those pens..besides which I have been bitching about the fact they have domesticated horses at those sites that can pass strangles and all kinds of crap to them.Hell the judas horse could have passed it too them..

    • Anonymous said

      Sandra, i found the article by Katie Fite and sent it to Tracie to get to you. It is back up today at my blog, also… mar

    • sandra longley said

      I want to make it clear, I have no reason to assign blame to any of the people that work at the BLM facility-they have got to be overworked and underpayed..I put the blame full square on the system-and those in the position to send down directives…On my ranch..that would be me. I always take full responsability for anything that happens to any of my horses or animals. It is my place to make the right decisions, and when i make a wrong one to correct it and use the experience to change something to make it go better. My vets have input and thats it.decisions are made by me, i do not put the tough stuff off onto the vets-especially life and death calls..I do what is best for my animals..period and all I ask is that the BLM do the same.I do consider them to be my horses, BLM is just our trustee.

      • sandra longley said

        I actually would have been very quick to make the call to put those obviously fatally injured down, that thin bay mare that was trying to get up, and the foal that was born and probably got stepped on for instance,, as well as the colts that couldn’t rise..Knowing you can not effectively treat them as wild horses has to be taken into consideration in relationship to their suffering. The only solution is to not have the roundups..but we must come up with a workable solution that benifits the horses all the way around..My sense is that this is the first attempt by the BLM to do any reporting to the public other than deaths during the roundups, or have observers during holding..I know it is tuff, but lets not cut our noses off to spite our face, and the BLM needs to do the same..They can’t avoid critisism but isolating us from the process, but we have to also be resonable in our critisism..May of these situations are inherant with the gathers and this long term holding..We have to change the policys upstairs and encourage them to be up frount and honest with us at ground level..I think everyone is kind of feeling our way through this..and I have had strong critisism and I want to show them the value of giving us information upfrount so there is not all this speculation running rampant.

        • It has taken the BLM some time to digest what is coming at them. This gave us time to learn and become more focused. We have to respond to the information we hear because they do need to have our input. All we say is not criticism. Some of what we say are suggestions to help the horses. Now that time is running out on the wild ones we have to attempt more face to face talks. I had understood this was going on but there is no transparency. Later this month I expect more information will be coming. Meanwhile we can be as reasonable as possible yet the outcome must be to end the present roundup goals. mar

  23. Laura Houston said

    upset about this disease hurting the mustangs. The BLM Vet report said “leasons were noted at round-up time on a few horses”

    Why was this NOT mentioned on the round-up date? I did NOT see ANY of the few pictures on JUST gathered mustangs with PF sores? did anyone?

    read up about it, it says 2 weeks to show-up, lives in contaminated soil and manure.
    Is the NEW Fallon place the START of this disease?
    OR are the contractor Cartoor TRAILERS used to transport horses OTHER than mustangs (do they use the same trailers,watering buckets ect.) to transport other horses to slaughter?)Then the trailers are a source of disease.?

    Did anyone notice the freshly rounded up mustangs with anything wrong with them?

  24. LOUIE COCROFT said

    LAURA, ALL OF THE THINGS THAT YOU STATED ARE MOST PROBABLY THE CAUSE. THE BROKEN ARROW RANCH WAS CONTRACTED FOR THIS ROUND-UP AND FOR THE FIRST PART OF IT, PUBLIC ACCESS WAS DENIED AND THE PUBLIC WAS NOT ALLOWED TO VIEW THE ROUND-UP. THAT RANCH MUST HAVE HAD STOCK OF SOME KIND BEFORE–HAVEN’T HEARD THAT BROUGHT UP. EVERYTHING THAT COULD MAKE A HORSE SICK HAS BEEN DONE TO THEM–STRESS, TRAUMA, WRONG FEED THAT THEY ARE NOT USED TO, EXPOSURE TO CONTAMINATION. YOU BET THEY GOT IT THERE.

    • Ok, heard back from the Broken Arrow guys this evening…
      Before it was Broken Arrow USA, the grounds were actually not used for anything at all. It was “desert land” and had little to no growth on it. There were a few sage but not enough to really make a difference. The grounds did not hold any livestock – cattle or otherwise – prior to the horses gathered from Calico.
      T.

  25. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THIS WAS ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION SITE:
    http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.php/news/other-news/8847-what-is-pigeon-fever-in-horses.html

    “Sheep and goats are sometimes infected with the same organism, but it’s a different biotype; horses can’t get pigeon fever from sheep or goats. But CATTLE CAN BE AFFECTED WITH EITHER TYPE, AND HORSES COULD THEORETICALLY GET THE DISEASE FROM CATTLE and vice versa, particularly if they live in the same pastures. These bacteria occur worldwide, and live in the soil. The organism has been shown to survive for up to two months in hay or bedding (straw, shavings) and more than eight months in soil samples

  26. LOUIE COCROFT said

    TRACIE, THIS ISN’T POSTING

  27. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THIS WAS ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION SITE:
    “Sheep and goats are sometimes infected with the same organism, but it’s a different biotype; horses can’t get pigeon fever from sheep or goats. But CATTLE CAN BE AFFECTED WITH EITHER TYPE, AND HORSES COULD THEORETICALLY GET THE DISEASE FROM CATTLE and vice versa, particularly if they live in the same pastures. These bacteria occur worldwide, and live in the soil. The organism has been shown to survive for up to two months in hay or bedding (straw, shavings) and more than eight months in soil samples

  28. LOUIE COCROFT said

    GUESS IT JUST WON’T POST A LINK. THE ABOVE WAS UNDER THE COMMENTS ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION SITE. YOU CAN SWING OVER AND SEE THE PUBLICATION SOURCE:
    New Press Release: Pigeon Fever Outbreak Uncovered as BLM Continues Closed-Door Policy
    April 1, 2010 by thecloudfoundation

  29. LOUIE COCROFT said

    I REMEMBER LISTENING TO ONE OF THE RADIO SHOWS WITH GINGER AND ELYSE. THEY WERE QUESTIONING THE HAY AND FEED–THERE SEEMED TO BE PROBLEMS. WHERE WAS THAT HAY STORED BEFORE GIVING IT THE HORSES? IT’S NOT THEIR NATURAL FOOD TO BEGIN WITH.

  30. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THIS WAS POSTED ON MARCH 23 ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION WEBSITE:
    Many mares also are having difficulty making the transition to a diet of hay in Fallon,…………
    Silverman questioned whether the quality of hay might have something to do with the deaths, and noted about 40 pregnant mares also have had miscarriages

  31. LOUIE COCROFT said

    I DON’T THINK THAT ANY OF US ARE BLAMING THE RANK AND FILE WORKER FOR THE PROBLEMS. THEY ARE CAUGHT UP IN THIS TANGLED BUREAUCRATIC MESS JUST AS MUCH AS THE HORSES. THE BLAME LIES SQUARELY ON THE SHOULDERS OF THOSE THAT GIVE THE OFFICIAL ORDERS–THE BUCK STOPS THERE. THE PEOPLE AT THE TOP, MAKING SIX-FIGURE SALARIES, GIVE THE ORDERS, AND THE WORKERS, WHO MAKE BASE-SCALE WAGES, HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE AFTERMATH. THEY DO IT IN THE HOSPITALS AND THEY DO IT THE SCHOOLS–I’VE SEEN HOW THAT WORKS–OR MORE ACCURATELY–DOESN’T WORK.

  32. sandra longley said

    If, Indeed, the BLM has noted pigeon fever out on the ranges-I would expect to see documentation in a record somewhere in the data banks of the BLM..They need to point me to that information that it was noted prior to the holding facility. Happy Easter All!

  33. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THIS WAS JUST POSTED ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION:
    Anne Says:

    April 4, 2010 at 1:29 pm | Reply
    Pigeon Fever is transmitted also by “IM Vaccinations: and by “wet living conditions;

    the pens @ Fallon have both IM Vacs and wet living condit.

    the wet straw; mixed with wet sand; and the mustangs droppings;
    create a food source for the flies to attach the vac. spot;

    THE BLM DOES NOT RAKE OUT THE MUSTANGS DROPPINGS
    this is totally wrong; the BLM serves Hay on top of SAND !

    ps Happy Easter to Cloud; and the Cloud Foundation; etc.
    anne conn. 1951

    • Louie / Annie,

      PF can be spread by IM injections and wet living conditions… However, for the IM injections to spread the infection, the same needle would have to be used on a healthy horse that had been previously used on an infected horse. This does not happen. I personally have observed the processing as well, and the needles along with the syringes are thrown away after each use. There is never a “dirty needle” situation.
      Additionally, there are not “wet living conditions”, they’re actually far from it. During the two full days I spent at Broken Arrow USA, I collected enough dust on my clothing, in my hair, (ew – even in my mouth!) that I could have sworn I was in the middle of the beach strip close to where I live in Texas. There is very little rain in the area, and even when I does rain the ground soaks up the moisture so fast that the chances of finding standing water are slim to none except of course for the water troughs. However, the water in the water troughs does not stay for long and is refilled frequently due to their size and the horses continually drinking.
      As for the “wet straw, mixed with wet sand, and the mustang droppings…etc.” Again, I have to say, there were none of these things that I saw during my visits. As described above, there is no wet sand; it is very, very dry. The straw is also not wet because it is not in water. The manure from the horses is no where near the straw as horses do not void close to where they eat.
      The straw is also not fed on sand. The hay is fed on the opposite side of the fence on top of concrete slab. The horses stick their heads through the fence in order to get to the hay. This system is in place for a reason: to prevent the horses from stomping all over their hay and to prevent the horses from eating hay that is on sand. There is also a concrete slab extending approximately 5-6 feet inside the pens that the horses stand on while they stick their heads through the fence to eat the hay.
      The only thing I see in these statements that is remotely true is the fact that the manure is in fact not removed from the pens daily. To implement such a practice at this stage in the horses readjustment period would be inhumane. These horses are barely used to the machinery that places their hay on the concrete slabs. Certainly they are not going to tolerate humans entering their pens daily to muck the manure. However, the BLM does not allow these pens to simply accumulate manure days/weeks on end. When the horses from a pen are being processed, the workers go in and clean the pens. No horses in the pens = no horses to upset.
      So no, there are no wet living conditions at Fallon (Broken Arrow USA), there is no wet straw, there is no wet sand to mix with the straw, and the BLM does not serve hay on top of sand.
      Happy Easter.
      T.

      • Although people see photos and should know there is not a lot of rain and snow was not frequent, this should help them have a better sense of the place. Terri Farley, I believe, reported the sand blowing when there were winds that kicked it up. Nevada is primarily arid. Thanks Tracie… mar

      • sandra longley said

        actually, this is a dryland disease, which is why it normally occurs at the dryest time of the year late summer into fall..which is also the height of the fly season..High desert has cold winters that shorten the fly season..Once the first hard freezzes come in the fall around the 1st of oct..fly season is over for the most part..whereas in calif where it is warm and moist..they have flies year around…The “moist” attracts flys and breeding and the movement of PF..The manure itself in the desert will attract the flys and be a breeding ground-thats all the moisture they need.
        I am not sure how they clean the pens..they would have to be scraping a layer of dirt off to get the manure..the horses will have stirred the manure into fine particles, that you could not pick up. and since the processing is about done..how will that be accomplished in the future? Moving them to an empty pen to allow 1 pen to rest?

        • sandra longley said

          Another interesting fact..I was driving from vegas to tonapah..there is literally only 1 stop for hundreds of miles, i am pulling an empy 4 horse-its 130 degrees..and no sign of life for many miles, i pull over to get something cold to drink, my windows are down in the truck-by the time I come out with my drink-the inside of my truck was black with flies…where they came from-I have no idea..I never saw one on my way in..It took miles of swatting to get rid of them so I know they had to have been coating the inside of my horse trailer -so I transported them for hundreds of miles..The amount of cattle in nevada is resposable for a lot of fly breeding cow manure being alot wetter than horse manure.

          • This is what I’ve been trying to figure out myself! What the heck is up with the freakin’ flies up there!? I remember when I was on the phone with you and out there at Broken Arrow… I finally had to roll the windows up in the truck because the freakin’ flies and gnats and – of all things! – freakin’ mosquitoes kept flying into the cab and buzzing around my head! I mean, come on! It was cold as a well digger’s butt at the bottom of his rope and there were freakin’ buzzing flies and all! It didn’t make any sense. I thought buzzing pests didn’t come around up North until it got good and warm. And yet, I bought a tube of Benadryl Cream before too many days into the trip to keep from scratching the bites I got while I was there!
            Seriously! What is up with that?!
            T.

          • sandra longley said

            It had kind of warmed up while you were there and got into the 60s, but fallon is full of cattle, feed lots, cattle breeders ect..You drive through the desert and see nothing for miles except cattle..When i moved to new Mexico the flies were horendous..locals told me the flys came with the dairy cattle industry.

  34. LOUIE COCROFT said

    THE FACT THAT HUMANE OBSERVERS HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED DURING PROCESSING MAKES US ALL UNEASY–DAMAGES ANY CREDIBILITY. WHO KNOWS WHAT THE CONDITIONS ARE WHEN THERE IS SUCH LIMITED VIEWING?

    • Louie,
      We have been there during the processing. I actually spent several hours – boring hours I might add – watching the processing of mares. Elyse has also watched the processing, as have others (that I can’t recall off the top of my head right now LOL) Each time, roughly the same things happen… They come in from the holding pens through the alleyways, they follow the alleyways through to the corrals, they go through the funnel, then though the narrow alleyway leading up to the squeeze chute, then into the squeeze chute, they get their vaccinations and worming and sometimes their brands if it’s time to do so, and then they are sent back out to their holding pens. Yes, there are times when things don’t go exactly as planned – the horses who’ve been injured or suffered their demise during this process – but all in all it’s pretty standard. I say it was boring because the system they have in place actually made me a little jealous… We do things almost the same way here in Texas when we bring the yearlings and broodmares in from the pastures. I’m jealous because their hyrdraulic squeeze chute is soooo much newer and nicer than mine LOL. And they also have the nicest freakin’ pipe fences I’ve ever seen! Oh boy – how I wish that we could afford a setup like that! Seriously, it was nice!
      I guess all I am trying to say is that I don’t see what the big fuss is about the processing of these horses and whether or not someone not employed by the BLM is allowed to watch. I’ve seen the videos and pictures that have come from others watching this process and quite frankly I see what the BLM is talking about when they say that they don’t want people there. The added stress of more humans – ones who don’t necessarily respect the pressure zones of these horses, I might add – makes the whole process that is already stressful enough even more stressful. I swear, I couldn’t believe my eyes when watching one video and set of pictures in particular! The person was just brazenly invading the space of these horses while they were in the corrals leading up to the funnel. Like they were just invisible or something! The horses obviously reacted in a frightened manner at this invader to their space, and then the person said that their fear was because of the processing! It was like, omg! No, they were scared to death and aggravated as hell that YOU were shoving a camera and your presence into their space! And also, scare them so that they look good and terrified for the pictures, then blame it on their situation and their handlers… How low are ya gonna sink here!?
      Sorry, I didn’t mean to get off on a soap box rant. It just really aggravates the crap out of me that they don’t mind their manners when in the presence of Equines. They have a language. It’s called Equus. If you don’t speak the language FLUENTLY, then don’t disrespect their presence until you DO KNOW HOW TO SPEAK IT! So far, I have not seen any communications between the observers and the horses that has been a fluid communication in THEIR language. That’s not to say that it doesn’t exist, just that I have not yet seen it. Disrespect is already in place for these horses. Don’t add to it.
      T.

      • sandra longley said

        Are you saying the blm employees speak..equus?? If so it must be “sign” language with alot of hand waving and pressure. Are they speaking Equus with helicoptors?
        Truthfully the terror is inherent in the whole process..The day the roundup started was the beginning of the terror, not the day the observers showed up..And your point is well taken..but there wouldn’t be the need for observers if there were no roundups or at least these wholesale roundups..its still about the big picture-not the snapshots.

        • sandra longley said

          This is where we ALL get hung up is on the details..we are arguing about putting a bandaid on a cut when we are bleeding out internally..It is a circle that always begins and ends with managing the horses so that these roundups and the consequences that follow don’t happen…This is the only plan the BLM can come up with to manage the horses, and this is the best one because the others are really horrifying..Now it maybe -they are doing there best in a bad situation…my focus is to remedy the bad situation..They are dragging their feet on the use of PZP, Dr. Kane said in two years they will do another roundup on the calicos to pzp and turn the horses back out..I objected, they should pzp a selection of mares now and turn them back out..having studied the way they do their arial counts, I do not believe they have anything like an accurate count on the horses left, there own documentation said they will do that count of how many horses are left within a couple of months after the horses have settled down and don’t scatter when they hear the sounds of the engines..altho having read the USGS reports on the studys done in Adobe Town, it was described the horses didn’t seem to be bothered by those sounds at the altitude they fly to do those counts. maybe they don’t really read their own studies..It has to make you wonder.

          • sandra longley said

            I am almost willing to put money on the table-and bet that BLM-will never see money again for this sort of thing..I am willing to predict these holding facilities will be shut down and there will be NO money for helicopter roundups..you can stick a fork in it..Congress and the american taxpayer have had it, and they are refusing to fund anything for the american people let alone the BLMs program of horse removal..So they better start PZPing these mares during the roundups and get it out of their heads that the cash cow is going to be there. My concern is for the horses when this hapens and we will need to be prepared to step up as voluteer organizations to see to it the horses are provided what they need..

          • I believe the mares at Fallon have been given PZP. There is the possibility of release. But how will BLM counter with the stallions? Will they geld and release? I do not think they know themselves, if the horses must be released by court order, after those chosen for adoption have been taken. If these horses are spared long term holding and released, I bet they will not be viable. mar

          • Linda said

            The BLM doesn’t act, it reacts! In my opinion, they are creating and perpetuating their own crisis by not implementing sound management practices on the HMAs on a continuing basis.

            As I understand it, the BLM pretty much ignores wild horse and burro reproduction on the HMAs for about 4 years. When herd populations increase beyond the published AMLs, their reaction is mass removal (“It’s raining wild horses!”). Then they process the wild ones “for adoption”, knowing full-well the overwhelming majority will never be adopted. Again, they perpetuate their own crisis.

            A bit off-topic, but I was curious as to why Obama chose to hold Salaczar over from the Cheney/Bush administration and keep him on the job. From what I gathered, appealing to Hispanic voters was and is the major contributing factor. “Qualifications”,“expertise”, and “job performance” not so much.

          • Linda said

            Mar corrected my bad fact check on the DOI progression. Cheney/Bush – Norton, Clarke, Hughes. Obama – Salaczar. A continuation of policies, not people.

          • sandra longley said

            NO.PZP shots on these mares at fallon..they are not planning on releasing them and those unadopted go to long term holding in female only situations..so they don’t need it. The 2 reports from the HS that tracie has posted also do not list it as one of the shots being given..Originally there plan was to capture 2600 and then give some mares shots and release them back..but since they could not find them ..no releases. As far as the judge freeing the horses back to the range..He made it pretty clear that he did not think the BLM could legally release what are considered to be excess horses..so I am hoping that someone is doing their homework to show him..these horses are not excess..

        • No ma’am, not at all. I think they may know of, as in they’ve heard about it somewhere, but no, I don’t for one second think that they actually understand it or speak it.
          T.

          • sandra longley said

            sounds like the HSUS gave them a good report..That will end up with them under the bus..I would still like to know what happened to that horses shoulder in the hospital pen..it looked like he had been chain sawed..

  35. LOUIE COCROFT said

    SANDRA, THAT IS THE POINT THAT GINGERS MAKES–THERE ARE NO FLIES IN THE DEAD OF WINTER. THEY ROUNDED THOSE HORSES UP WHEN TEMPERATURES WERE FREEZING. THERE WAS NO MENTION OF SCARS FROM PRIVIOUS INFECTIONS AT THAT TIME–ELYSE MADE A VERY CERTAIN NOTE OF THAT. SHE HAS STAYED WITH THOSE HORSES ALL THE WAY–EVEN TO THE POINT OF TRYING TO FOLLOW THE TRUCKS. AS SHE SAID, THEN WOULD HAVE BEEN THE TIME TO REPORT THAT–IN THE BEGINNING. I AM, NOT FOR A MINUTE, GOING TO LET THOSE HORSES BE BLAMED FOR THIS.

  36. sandra longley said

    If you have not read this article please do..We need to start calling for a Congressional investigation of some of these people involved in this decision.

    http://theandbetween.wordpress.com/2010/01/12/part-three-of-three-all-the-management-tools/

  37. LOUIE COCROFT said

    SANDRA, POST THIS ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION WEBSITE. THIS IS WHERE I FIRST JUMPED IN–WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THE PROPOSED “EUTHANASIA” OF 34,000 WILD HORSES IN HOLDING PENS. THIS HAS ALL BEEN PLANNED. AS WE THOUGHT, THERE WERE CATTLE ON THAT RANCH.

  38. LOUIE COCROFT said

    TRACIE, IT IS GOOD THAT YOU WERE ALLOWED IN AT THE PROCESSING. I CAN UNDERSTAND NOT HAVING THE GENERAL PUBLIC THERE, BUT IT IS OF CONCERN NOT TO ALLOW HUMANE OBSERVERS, AS THEY ARE ALLOWED JUST ABOUT EVERYWHERE ELSE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT–RODEOS, ENDURANCE COMPETITIONS, ETC. ANYWHERE WHERE AN ANIMAL’S SAFETY COULD BE COMPROMISED. WERE THERE OTHERS, BESIDES YOU? I HAD NOT HEARD THAT ELYSE WAS THERE–SHE HAS BEEN DURING VISITING DAYS–BUT WAS SHE ALLOWED IN DURING PROCESSING? WITH THE LACK OF STAFFING AND THE APPARENT LACK OF CONCERN DURING OTHER PARTS OF THE OPERATION, IT IS ONLY NATURAL BE ALARMED.

    • She was allowed to view the processing at one of the media days I believe. I think it was sometime around the beginning of March, but again, I am not entirely sure of the date.
      No, the day I was observing the processing I was the only non-personnel person there.
      T.

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