My Aggie Girl
Needing Clarification…
Posted by Texas Mustang Project on March 21, 2010
In some of the comments throughout the blog, there have been statements regarding the acquisition of legal services from an attorney. I would like to explore this subject more in depth.
- What would be the overall purpose?
- What specifically would we be suing for?
- Who specifically would we be suing?
- What is the outcome we would want to see from these efforts?
- Who would be included as the plaintiffs?
The ~Texas~ Mustang Project's Blog 
jan said
i had emailed jon marvel at the watershed project – he has a legal team that has sued the blm and won – his group go after the blm where cattle damage public lands, destroying native plants – his email is jon@westernwatersheds.org and he has been in touch with ginger kathrens from the cloud blog – you might just email him and get his take on lawyers that are for wildlife and the enviroment
R.Thompson said
I am leery of lawsuits at this time. TMP has provided an unbiased look at the whole situation, and you, “T”, have had an impact with BLM and their contractors. I think that should be pursued further before suits are implemetned.
Of course, this is just my opinion. However, I know what the reaction is within federal agencies once lawsuits are filed. The doors close. I doubt, at this point, any lawyer will speak with the same clear voice you do. There is time for everything, I believe your efforts now can make more progress.
tracielynnthompson@yahoo.com said
Hence my reasoning behind asking this question… I – and several others – would like to know what the particulars of this idea involve, and what – if any – positive outcome could be gained from putting forth efforts & energy into it vs. other areas.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
I HEAR THIS A LOT–“YOU JUST CAN’T REASON WITH THOSE HORSE ADVOCATES. YOU CAN’T TALK TO THEM. THEY JUST DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT”.. SOUND FAMILIAR?
tracielynnthompson@yahoo.com said
LOL very familiar. But that’s where we seem to have an advantage… We know that there are better ways, and we’re not afraid to find them & advocate for them, even if they don’t follow the same original lines of thought we had before we heard them.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
I THINK LAWSUITS ARE A LAST RESORT TO STOP THE ROUND-UPS WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS. THERE IS JUST A SENSE OF HAVING TO DO SOMETHING.
themustangproject said
I agree… Last resort, but what options specifically do we target in the meantime? It is painfully obvious at this point that efforts to stop gathers have not been altogether successful. The gathers may have been ended prior to their original completion dates, and other gathers may have been postponed, but horses were and will still be gathered. Furthermore, are the gathers themselves where we need to be focused? Or should we go deeper?
(Sorry for this, but it’s the best way I know to say it.)
I can give a patient a various assortment of medications, defibrillate his heart, breathe for him, give him fluids to maintain his blood pressure, hell I can even make his heart beat whether it wants to or not. But if I don’t close the gaping wound in his chest and stop the bleeding, all I am doing is treating the symptoms. I have to fix the problem first, otherwise he will never get better and eventually my efforts will no longer work.
So what exactly is the “gaping wound” in this case? Is it a need for better birth control? Is it a need for more lands? Is it a need for rearrangement? What about improvement of ranges for better forage and irrigation? What about better balancing of the ecosystem amongst all of the difference species who need its resources?
What “treatment” will fix the underlying problem causing all of the symptoms?
T.
sandra longley said
EXACTLY! We are running around trying to manage the carnage in a war zone, where bombs are flying every which way..we need to stop the war..I have this sense that we are always reacting to the crisis instead of heading it off..and they are flying at us in bunches.
I think it starts at the political top by initial directives..and quite frankly it no longer matters which political party is in power..It just amounts to who gets the prize for horse “worst”..We all have good reason to suspect that the BLM is not managing the land for the taxpayers..but for power, which has alot to do with where the ‘bucks” lie. By now we are all getting an education in land planning and how it is SUPPOSED to work, and yet we are seeing ample proof that it is being made to work-to favor the outcome that is desired by those political objectives.
I am getting increasingly angry-because I have been a supporter of clean energy for years..and now I have take a stand opposing it..because of the scorched earth policy- that this is to be done on the broken backs of the horses-I do not like being manipulated and lied to by the government, any branch.
I believe we are going to have to force the BLM to PROVE they are managing land and the resources to benifit all.This, I believe is the heart of the matter..In order to determine “excess” wild horses..you have to be able to show that it has been scientifically determined to be the case..and not just a bi-product of mismanagement , negligence, or a mis appropriation or resources.reducing the lands given to the horses by law has to be addressed in a court of law, as well as all the evidence i have seen in my research as -to the lack of good management practices across the board..be it mining, development, valuing water resources, complete disregard of cultural significance to the native american tribes..It all reflects a decades long disrespect and disregard for those who stand in the way of the BLM
sandra longley said
Louie, I think we are LONG PAST “last resort” there are over 30,000 wild horses in holding facilities..mostly these horses all disappeared under the radar of the american public..where are they? There are not that many still out here in the west..how many are in the midwest already? How many horses do you think are left on the calico complex? Do you realise they stopped gathering because they could not find anymore..not because we protested..or had a lawsuit going.Bob Abbey stated in an interview that he would not let lawsuits deter him. He is absolutely determined to be the sheriff from nevada that finally got “the job done”, so when he goes back to his home in Nevada all those redkneck ranchers will backslap him and tell him what a good ole boy he is.
sandra longley said
I would like to point out that if Jon marvel had felt that lawsuits were fruitless and pointless the BLM would still be getting away with bloody murder on cattle allotments. For years people have been complaining about mismanagement of BLM across the board..I live here surrounded by government lands..It seems like this is “news” but it is old news to us..The BLM has squeezed the horses since they have been put under their care custody and control..THIS is a matter of LAW, and LAW is decided in courts..If our opinion mattered and could sway the outcome..it would have already been done..It ain’t gonna happen thataway..while we twiddle our thumbs, the horses continue to disappear…roundups continue…animals die..horses that have survived years in their habitat are being removed forever..Lets not get too cozy with patting ourselves on the back..we have accomplished little except in the way of exposing and educating ourselves..My point is…we have NO sucess to show for our efforts..I know that know one wants to hear that..we want to think we are making a difference..but we have yet to do that..My motto has always been to immulate those that are sucessful at what they want to accomplish,,Marvel has done with his lawsuits and a small group of volunteers…what we have been unable to do with worldwide support…expose and stop the BLM-through action..Plans are to clear out those horses at the Palamino holding facility and refill it with horses gathered this summer..People at low level posistions do not have the power to stop that from happening.
R.Thompson said
Fair enough point. What is the cost angle Of Marvel’s activites against BLM and who funds it? Success costs money as I am painfully aware in my activites on behalf of wolves and periodically contributing to two or more organizations with suits in place against sundry agencies under Interior Secretary Ken Salazar.
Regretably, you are very correct that low level people in any agency (meaning below the senior executive level)do not have the power or influence to effect change, however well intentioned some of them might be personally.
How many people will step up and fund legal actions on behalf of wild horses? I don’t know, I am just asking. I’d favor stopping it all and reconsidering development of a true management plan for other then vested cattle and energy transmission interests. If lawsuits will work to achieve that end, I am willing to help, but I assure you I have not sufficient funds to do it alone or in a small group. It is why I support Defenders of Wildlife and National Resource Defense Council on several issues, even though I grow weary of the expensive promotional crap they mail out to encourage the effort….I’d rather the money be spent on the legal actions, but I know that is a niave veiwpoint…it just doesn’t work that way. To raise money a lot of buttons have to be pushed by whatever means works. It concerns me, in my niavete’, that it is very hard to determine the actual ratio of direct help to animals versus administration of large advocate organizations.
All that said, your point is still valid.
sandra longley said
Marvel has a non profit organization of 1200 people and a budget of 1 million..that would be donations..it seems like alot of money..but I have learned the power of small individual contributions via the last election cycle..I think the Cloud foundation with their broad recognition in the american public has the ability to be the center for this..I have suggested at the bottom of every article, there should be a donate NOW button..it can be set up to auto donate $5 a month or do a donation for any amount. People who are passionate will donate.
I believe the firm marvel uses is doing it pro bono.
themustangproject said
Again, agreed, however… Before begining donations, it needs to be clear what the public is donating for and as well, who they are donating to. Basically, I’m thinking that it may be best if after the what is cleared up, donations should be made to a trust fund. A trust fund could be set up by an attorney – namely the attorney who would be handling any legal affairs – and the moneys in that trust could be used for the purposes of legal fees and whatnot. This way, there would be less hands in the cookie jar – so to speak – and the funds would not be limited to any one organization or group. It could be set up as a sort of “umbrella” that would include anyone who’s goal is the best possible outcome for the horses.
I think that at this point, alliances and coalitions and groups and organizations need to come together, and not be just alliances and coalitions and groups and organizations. All of us involved in this need to stand together as one entity, not 75 or 100. We all want basically the same thing. We just need to figure out what our common goals are and move forward with them. We don’t have to agree on every detail, but we do have to be certain of what we want.
T.
sandra longley said
Absolutely..we are fragmented in our power unless we unite.
However we must make some decisive moves soon,or it will be all over but the shouting..and will be a case of should have, would have, could have,we can jaw this to death..or come up with a clear simple objective…and that is- there is no reason for roundups to be conducted period-using the model provided by the USGS-using PZP in combination with High Resolution Imaging to accurately determine numbers of horses..returning lands to the HMAs as originally existed, and using the USGS to provide range management science..we don’t need to fix the roundups..we need to stop them.
themustangproject said
Agreed.
T.
sandra longley said
We need funding for:
1)lawsuits
2)a lobbiest in DC
3)Commercials to inform the public at large as to what is happening.
4)funds to support research..using volunteers and reimbursment, and private firms where necessary.
themustangproject said
Agreed. But again, all expenditures would require a majority vote by members. Everything down to a single penny. This practice ensures transparency and prevents oversight.
T.
reveil39 said
What about funds for humane observers?
themustangproject said
Re:
reveil39 said
March 22, 2010 at 11:15 am e
What about funds for humane observers?
That’s another ball of wax in and of itself. Personally, I do not care for the title “humane observers” because there are varying opinions of what is humane and what is not. As well, I do not feel that anyone in a position such as this should have an agenda prior to an assignment. I suggest that an “independent observer” be in place. Such a person would not make decisions regarding humane treatment or care on their own, but would instead report findings and facts as they observe them to the public and allow the public to decide for themselves whether or not they are humane.
It boils down to simply this: If you’re looking for a zebra, you’ll see a zebra. If you’re looking for a horse, you’ll see a horse. But another person standing next to you may see something altogether different, like a donkey. Neither of you are wrong, but you both have different interpretations of what you are perceiving. What gives one the right to tell the other that he is wrong or right? Why can’t he decide for himself?
Additionally, any person in this position should have an extensive working knowledge of Equine health, physiology, and behaviors. To place someone without said education in a position with this much importance is simply preposterous. How can a person without this knowledge make any observation effectively? They simply can’t. They wouldn’t know what they were seeing, and would mistake positive actions for negative actions and vice versa. A reaction that may appear to be positive may in fact be negative, and vice versa here too. Would you allow someone who cannot prove their education as a doctor perform surgery on you? No, you wouldn’t. Same principal.
T.
sandra longley said
All interested groups should have an observer to observe and comment from their perspective..I want to see alot of documentation…however that was severely limited by the BLM..Who could have and should have had their own documentation done..I want to see a photo of every horse that is put down..I want documentation concerning which HMA that horse was from..see there is another example of a lack of management.That is how science and plans should evolve.
themustangproject said
Agreed on observer in place, but he/she should have the proper qualifications.
T.
themustangproject said
Sorry, didn’t mean to get on my soap box.
To answer your question, yes, there would be funds if the members voted for it to be so.
T.
sandra longley said
Hey don’t apologise…I moved my sofa to my soap box, just so I could be more comfortable..thinking of moving my frig over here too..LOL
themustangproject said
Don’t forget the coffee pot LOL
T.
reveil39 said
There are really two sides concerning who will go and observe the horses, and it probably would be best that there is more than one person.
One aspect is a someone with knowledge about equine health, a vet passionate about horses would be ideal. The other aspect is a person who is a concerned citizen.
I think it is important to keep the gates open to the public, even as little as they are today.
The horses belong to the American taxpayer, and just for principle alone, this second person should be allowed in.
reveil39 said
I would also vote for a horse gentler to go along.
themustangproject said
I agree with all of your suggestions on this matter. It just seems that to allow anyone with any less credentials is a waste of time and even more so it makes for a really mis-informed public because of the lack of knowledge and experience that person would have. (or not have rahter LOL).
T.
reveil39 said
Most importantly the observer should be allowed access during the round ups and immediately after as well.
LOUIE COCROFT said
SANDRA, I DON’T LIKE ALL OF THIS TIME GOING BY AND THE SAME OLD THING KEEPS HAPPENING WITH THE HORSES JUST LEFT IN LIMBO–NO HUMANE OBSERVERS ALLOWED AT HOLDING FACILITIES. THERE NEEDS TO BE A MAJOR, BIG TIME, COURT ORDER TO MAKE THE AGENCY FOLLOW THE LAWS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS. HOW DO WE DO THAT? DOES IT TAKE MORE MONEY? WE CAN RAISE MORE MONEY. THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY THAT WILL CONTRIBUTE TO IDA. WE SHOULD PROBABLY STAY WITH OUR ORIGINAL GROUP TO RAISE FUNDS. I THINK WHAT TRACIE IS ASKING IS FOR US TO BE CLEAR IN WHAT WE WANT. HOW DO WE LINK UP WITH MARVEL’S LAWYERS?
themustangproject said
Precisely what I am asking, Louie. We all need to be perfectly clear before we step off into anything where these horses are involved. Mistakes are not cheap (and I don’t mean monetarily).
T.
sandra longley said
My sense is that we need to attack this in court,not through the 71 legislative act with the burns amendment attached..so far no case has been made that will stand in a court of law at the federal level..the law as it stands..is too full of loopholes and trapdoors to be able to mount a strong attack..which is the problem with the way laws are written..they try to satisfy too many interests..Instead we need to go directly after the BLM…to prove mismanagement of the lands-is the direct cause of removing the horses-using them as the only management tool-a direct result of their lack of-management..and we have seen many examples of that in our research across the board….This is the way I see that Marvel has done this..it all boils down to proving the horses are in fact “excess” that has to do with the question..”is the BLM adequately and scientifically performing their job as “good land managers”..If I hire a ranch manager, and he tells me I have to get rid of my horses as the one and only “solution” to managing my land..I say any idiot could have told me that..I hired you for solutions, options and ideas-I am expecting to hear ideas about different rotations, irrigations methods, grasses,balancing ect.
themustangproject said
Environmentalists, Ecologists, Horse Advocates, Burro Advocates, Sage-Grouse Advocates, Pygmy Rabbit Advocates, Cultural Resources and Native American Tribal Councils – these are just a handful of the interests with a similar goal in mind. Most all of these entities have the same opponent and yet there are not that many who are linked together. If we all have the same end result in mind, why not go at the wall with one solid push rather than a bunch of individual pushes? It would certainly be more efficient and effective.
What we need for this to become a reality is a clear understanding of what each of us would like to see as the final outcome for the horses, and what we all can agree on to that end. Yes, we all have ideas and we have all put them out on blogs and emails. This is not sufficient, nor is it efficient or effective. We need them in writing, so to speak. Once we agree on this, we can ascertain the details of how our end result can be achieved alongside other’s end results. Just because the desired outcomes are different does not mean that the path to those outcomes has to be different.
Obviously, this is just an idea at this point and this idea needs input to make it more than just that. As well, if we are going to do something like this, we need to do it now. Time is of the essence, and it’s not exactly a renewable resource. If there is someone else out there who already has something of this nature in place, please – by all means, please – let me and everyone else know about it.
Here is what I propose:
1) One single entity
2) A core board of directors of said entity
3) Open acceptance of any person(s), organization(s), and group(s) with the same mission
The fundamental purpose of said entity would be to have a collective voice, not a fragmented voice. The functioning purpose of said entity would be to implement lawsuits, proposals, and actions in opposition or support of government or civilian entities as that collective.
All directors will be voted upon by the members of said entity. No one will be self or otherwise appointed to any position. All decisions regarding any lawsuits, proposals, or actions in opposition or support of any government or civilian entity will be voted upon prior to implementation by the members. Nothing will take place without a majority vote.
Any majority vote that is a 49% to 51% result will be reviewed additionally before implementation takes place. All 49% votes will be reviewed in a QA/QC format to ensure that all options and comments are taken into consideration before progress continues.
Members would meet via internet-conferences when physical meeting is not possible. This is the most available venue to most, and is also the most cost efficient. Webcam, video, etc. are readily available resources, and high-speed internet can be utilized in most public libraries if an individual does not have such capability otherwise.
All funds donated or raised by said entity would be placed into a trust fund. No expenditure would be allowed without a majority vote by the members. All books would be open to all members. All records would be open to all members. Said entity would be completely and totally “transparent”.
Bylaws would be developed and voted upon. All input submitted would be considered in said vote. No suggestion will be left out or disregarded no matter from where it came or what input is enclosed. Each member would have a voice so long as said member abided by the bylaws and voting process.
Initially, said entity will function only in a “start-up” capacity. However, goals should be set immediately for voting as to whether to obtain 501(c)(3) status or become an incorporated entity. All pros and cons will be weighed in this matter.
Additionally, an initial board of directors should be in place to facilitate “start-up”. These directors, their positions and duties should be chosen by the initial members. After the initial vote of tax status is completed and said status is obtained, open membership will begin, and open voting for elected board members will commence. No lawsuits, proposals, or actions in opposition or support of any government or civilian entity will be implemented until said board is elected and in place.
That’s all for the moment… Gimme some thoughts…
T.
sandra longley said
I have never run across an organized effort to do this..I kept running this suggestion up the flag pole, but never got other than a luke warm response…Apparently you and i are a coalition of 1!It struck me when I ran onto the the WWP..Our initial goal was the same-Preserve and Manage the land-extends to the goals of all who look to preserve species.
This is my take on it: the BLM (the force of darkness)LOL..has developed a perfect villian thru propaganda…Every interest in the land has a support organization…private interests groups,mining development, energy and livestock, recreation,hunting ect..then conssevation groups, sierra club, nevada conservatory ect,,who represent birds and “other wildlife”..It seems to me, over these years..little organization was done to advocate for the wild horses until this massive roundup..Now I am sure there were those like matt in the priors, and advocate groups in nevada-who were more aware of what was happening to the wild horses..someone correct me if I am wrong..but it was certainly-NOT reaching the public at large until recently..So when these other groups came to the BLM demanding to know why their particular species was in trouble…the BLM response..those worthless range maggots the horses were doing all the damage…there was no voice loud enough to invalidate the propaganda being spred by the BLM-to deflect critisism or scrutiny of their practices..and organizations have bought it hook line and sinker…the BLM takes them on little guided tours to a water hole, and says look..see those hoofprints…horses are responsable for your little birds being gone…when in fact, you see worn deer paths everwhere in the wild..the fact that under those hoofprints are antelope prints, deer prints cattle and sheep prints to say nothing of cattle tracks…the one and only species that will only travel 6/10s of a mile from a water hole.My point..the BLM has had decades to instil this propaganda into these other groups…and upped the ante as these drives started to get the wild horses off the land..they went out of their way to cultivate these groups, make promises in order to get them to come out in support of eliminating the wild horses..and they are very proud of that effort..There is alot of ‘undoing” to be done..BLM has created the “common enemy” in the wild horse.
themustangproject said
If this is truly the case on such a wide front, how do we “undo” all of it? Seriously, what measures do we take to educate and inform these groups of the correct information?
T.
sandra longley said
SCIENCE..and we do not need albert einstein to do it…a good roadmap..again, very sucessful, is what WWP has done..field cages..placed by volunteers checked by volunteers(some removed by cattlemen) Look at their photos on their website..its not as inspiring as looking at the pictures of the wild horses..but it has been extremely effective..I keep saying it..but we need to go to Marvel for some advice on the “proving it” side which is what we are lacking..We can point to all the information in documents we have found, that shows the BLM is not using science as recommended, not following their own guidlines in issuing EIS and other findings..I think there is a volume of proof of a lack of intent to perform on their part, but we need field studies in the HMAs to verify..look what they say about the BLM employee who went against the grain and stated she was surprised to find sufficent forage on the calicos given the numbers blm was quoting as population..even you wouldn’t accept what she said…disgruntled employee, isn’t that what they call all whistle blowers? Demonize the messenger..only she didn’t whistle blow..she was called to the stand to testify to the best of her knowledge..and they tried to destroy her credibility..certainly discourages anyone else from telling the truth.
themustangproject said
I talked with Jon at the Ruby meeting on the 11th, as well as Tina (Tappy?) from the Toiyabe Chapter of the Sierra Club and Michon Eben of the Reno-Sparks Indian Colony. That’s where the idea started for all of us joining together. We all seemed to be on the same page as to what we wanted for the range and that none of us wanted Ruby to go through as it is currently proposed. We all seemed to be at the same point in the process of being stumped as to how to get all of us together.
Over the next week, I spoke with Michon along with Dean and Orville Barlese and Keenan (?) of the Paiute Indian Tribes and as well I spoke with Katie at WWP. Still getting all of the info together, but basically we all seem to be in agreeance about getting together.
And no, I didn’t accept what Glenna Eckel said because I hadn’t seen if for myself. Of course, now that I have I have a totally different understanding of the situation as a whole. (More on that soon, promise.)
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
I TALKED TO ONE OFFICIAL ON THE PHONE. WHEN HE ASKED ABOUT “HUMANE OBSERVER” I TOLD HIM THAT ELYSE GARDNER WAS A LICENSED COURT REPORTER WHOSE JOB DEPENDS ON HER BEING ACCURATE. HER CREDENTIALS WOULD HOLD UP UNDER ANY SCRUTINY–DEGREE IN EQUINE SCIENCE, I THINK. CRAIG DOWNER–HIS CREDENTIALS–HIS WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE–THEY DON’T COME ANY BETTER THAN THAT. ALL OF THAT INFO IS ON THE CLOUD FOUNDATION WEBSITE AND I USE IT.
LOUIE COCROFT said
TRACIE, THIS DOESN’T POST IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.
themustangproject said
Yea, I noticed that too… Can’t figure out why it’s doing it though. Sorry.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
CALLED THE WHITE HOUSE COMMENT LINE. PERSON THAT I TALKED TO ASKED “WHO WOULD CONDUCT THAT INDEPENDENT EVALUATION OF WILD HORSES AND BURROS ON PUBLIC LANDS?”
GOOD QUESTION–HAVE WE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?
sandra longley said
Good for you Louie!!! I heard the lines had been so tied up on the health care debate that it was virtually impossible to get through..I had know idea that they would actually ask you a question..i figured it to be a thank you, and goodbye..good to know..This week there is also a march on washington-on immigration reform..that will light up the phone lines..all hot topics of debate..I wish everyone great success this week on representing our cause…
themustangproject said
I’ve definately thought about it, and I’ve still got a few details to work out in my own head, but I think that it is entirely possible to get this done independently and individually.
Actually, I’m working on it and another statement at the moment, I’ll try to type faster LOL.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
WENT BACK AND CHECKED–ELYSE IS AN EQUINE SCIENCE MAJOR.
LOUIE COCROFT said
LISTENED TO JANE GOODALL ON PBS. SHE IS INTERESTED IN THE BLACK FOOTED FERRET. THE PRAIRIE DOGS ARE BEING POISONED AND THAT IMPACTS THE FERRETS, THUS THE PRAIRIES. SHE LOVES THE PRAIRIES, ALSO. THAT WOULD BE A GOOD INSTITUTE TO GET IN TOUCH WITH.
themustangproject said
So that’s another good point… How about everyone start making a list of the different organizations, groups, and individuals that you would like to be involved or ones that you think would be an asset… If anything, it would give all of us a baseline to start from for resources and information.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
I HAVE BEEN CALLING THE WHITE HOUSE LINE EVERY DAY SINCE I HEARD ELYSE SAY THAT IT IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE–WE HAVE MADE THE CALL LIST. THE PEOPLE THAT I HAVE TALKED TO ARE FAMILIAR WITH IT NOW–THEY ALREADY KNOW BEFORE I EVEN GET VERY FAR INTO MY SPEECH.
LOUIE COCROFT said
EVERYONE MUST HAVE COME OVER HERE TO TALK–I THINK ALL OF THE CLOUD FOUNDATION BLOGGERS ARE HEADED TO WASHINGTON D.C.
themustangproject said
LOL
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
TRACIE–THE SIERRA CLUB? THEY HAVE COME OUT AGAINST THE WILD HORSES–PERHAPS NOT ALL OF THEIR MEMBERS ARE IN AGREEMENT ON THIS–GOOD!!!!
themustangproject said
LOL I love it… Yea, the Sierra Club. No, they didn’t “come out against the wild horses”, rather they “came out in favor of the range”. If we had been in their shoes, we probably would have done the same thing. They only stated that they agreed with the Calico Gather, not that they were against wild horses as a whole. While speaking with Tina, I found that our goals are much the same – healthy rangelands make healthy wildlife, so let’s try our best to have healthy ranges. I think the differences come into play when we begin down the roads of how we attain that goal, and who (the wildlife) gets “rearranged living arrangements” along the way. Naturally, I want the horses to stay right where they are if there is enough nutrition for them there. Likewise, Tina would like the same for the Sage-Grouse and Pygmy Rabbits. Ideally, cohabitation would be best. Attaining that goal is a little more complicated LOL.
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
TRACIE, DOES THE SIERRA CLUB STILL FEEL THE SAME ABOUT THE CALICO ROUND-UP SINCE IT HAS TAKEN PLACE? THE THING THAT IS DON’T THINK ANY OF THEM SEE IS WHAT A HUGE LAND GRAB THIS IS.
themustangproject said
I really don’t like to speculate on these matters, but I would have to say from their literature and website that yes, they do. Their reasons however are somewhat justified. They feel that the gather was necessary due to the increasing populations of wild horses on those ranges, and that because of this, the range habitats for the sage-grouse and pygmy rabbits were being severely harmed. Additionally, most of the studies and information used by the Toiyabe Chapter is done by their own scientists, not by BLM. Among their members, a great deal of them are ecologists, geologists, and biologists and all other sorts of “-ists”. This information gives me some sense of ease in the respect that they are not making their claims based on government reports, but instead they took the time to do it themselves.
T.
sandra longley said
Perhaps what they are missing in their analysis-is someone with a degree in biology and expertise in horse grazing behavior..I have heard ludicrious statements from that sector…I have read PDFs from some these organizations and the BLM about their guided tours..where in fact the BLM was pointing out to members the damage done by the horses.
I personally protect coveys of quail and 2 pheasants on my horse ranch…The biggest destroyer of quail..The hawks, and the weather, coyotes raiding the nests of these birds grouse ect that lay their eggs on the ground..just my own personal experience..
themustangproject said
If memory serves, that’s why Craig quit the Sierra Club. He said that he didn’t agree with their standpoint on the Calico Gather and others, and could not be a part of an organization with such a position. I think you bring up a very interesting point. Will have to look into it a little further.
T.
sandra longley said
Now THAT is funny..I was going to suggest Craig Downer was the person they needed to consult with..LOL been there done that..i guess
sandra longley said
In my research yesterday I ran across some information about a gather done in the calicos in 2002-where they removed 2200 horses..Now explain to me how that figures into the range being in such poor shape…also ran into information that 2006 was an extremely wet year..way above normal..Did not see any figures as to how many horses were left on the calicos after that gather..need to try and find a table of how many horses counted and removed on the calicos over the last 10 years..
T, any charts available for that info??
themustangproject said
Probably somewhere on this mess of a harddrive LOL… Gimme a few minutes, I’ll try to find it.
In the meantime, I just posted the NDoW 2008-2009 Big Game Status publication in “Points of Interest”. It’s a pretty interesting read…
T.
themustangproject said
Found ’em… Uploaded & formatted on the BLM Internal Documents & Evidence page… LOL didn’t realize I still had that many of them!
T.
LOUIE COCROFT said
SANDRA, JUST A THOUGHT–SENATOR LANDRIEU HAS A FULL TIME LAW/INTERN STUDENT FROM GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY (I THINK IT’S GEORGETOWN)TO HELP WORK ON THIS. SHE IS TRYING TO HELP. THAT MIGHT BE A GOOD PLACE TO CONTACT ABOUT YOUR IDEA.
LOUIE COCROFT said
THE PROTESTS AND RALLYS ARE DRAWING PEOPLE INTO THIS THAT ARE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT IT. I AM SEEING SOME REALLY TALENTED PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WEB AND HEARING THEM CALL IN ON RADIO SHOWS. THERE IS JUST SOMETHING ABOUT HORSES THAT STIR PEOPLE. THE HORSE IS TO AMERICA WHAT THE SACRED COW IS TO INDIA. WHAT IS BEING DONE TO OUR WILD HORSES AND BURROS REALLY GOES AGAINST THE GRAIN.
LOUIE COCROFT said
I THINK THE IDA IS A GOOD CENTRAL PLACE FOR DONATIONS. THEY HAVE THE POWER , THEY HAVE THE NUMBERS. YOU CAN PUT WHAT SPECIFIC CATAGORY THAT YOU WANT YOUR DONATIONS TO GO INTO. THEY ARE ALREADY INTO THIS–I WOULDN’T CHANGE HORSES MIDSTREAM. AS TO WHICH LAWFIRM–THAT IS THE QUESTION. WE NEED ONE THAT IS AGGRESSIVE AND NOT AFRAID TO GO AFTER IT.